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Sunnagh More Property Location From 1910 & 1911 Census
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Keith Nelson



Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Posts: 16
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:35 pm    Post subject: Sunnagh More Property Location From 1910 & 1911 Census Reply with quote

I found the family of my ggrandmother Mary Maguire in the 1901 & 1911 census. The family is in house 31 in Sunnagh More in 1901 and house 28 in the 1911 census. These are most likely the same property.
I would like to pinpoint the location of the land. Is there a way to cross reference the lots or is there a map or record of which house number is located where?
Thanks for your help. Keith
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pflanagan132



Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 40
Location: dublin

PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:27 pm    Post subject: Sunnagh More Property Location From 1910 & 1911 Census Reply with quote

The houses did not have actual numbers, but numbers were allocated for the purpose of enumeration. So 31 and 28 was most likely the same house.
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Keith Nelson



Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Posts: 16
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply. The two house numbers are probably the same residence. What I want to find is the actual physical location of the property. Is there a way to look at the house numbers from the 1900 or 1910 census and locate where that piece of land is today? I know there were no addresses back then. But, how can I find what the address would be now?
Thanks again for your help.
Keith
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pflanagan132



Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 40
Location: dublin

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are no maps to match locations of houses in either census.
If you knew the predecessors of your Mary c. 1856 you could try this link, http://griffiths.askaboutireland.ie/gv family search form.php.There were about 10 Maguires leasing land in Cloone at that time.
There is one Maguire listed in eircom phonebook in Cloone parish today
The probability is that the Maguire homestead of 1911 is now long gone. Your best bet would be to contact somebody in Sunnagh More who might be able to identify the site.
Are there any descendants in the area today, and if not, do you know who was the last relative, and when did they leave?.
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Jim Irvine



Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 59
Location: Liverpool, England

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I presume you are talking about Mary Maguire who married Pat Nichol in Cloone on 4th Feb 1918?

If so the Cloone parish records lists baptisms for 5 children (including Mary) to Daniel Maguire and Mary Higgins at Sunnaghmore and I assume these are her parents.

Daniel died before the census and his wife is shown as a widow.

You need next to contact the Valuation office in Dublin and ask for the details of the holdings of Daniel Maguire in Sunnagh More townland in the ‘Cancelled Books’. These record changes in who held what land between 1857 and the early 20th century. Assuming the same system still holds as when I last went in, you will probably get a map of the relevant part of the townland and a list of what Daniel and his predecessors and descendants held in the townland.
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Keith Nelson



Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Posts: 16
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Jim,

I don't know where to start. I believe Daniel Maguire and Mary Higgins are my great grandparents and Daniel died before the 1901 census.

The 1911 census shows they had 11 children. Yet, the Cloone parish records show 5 baptised. Wouldn't they have baptised all the children? Or, maybe they changed where they lived and as a result had a different church? Are the names of the 5 listed? One child is missing on the 1901 census and I don't have that name.

According to immigration records, my grandmother Bridget came to the US in 1905 to visit her sister Mary who lived in New York City. Perhaps Mary returned to Ireland and married Pat Nichol. I found a Mary McGuire in NYC who married an Andrew Carr in 1919. We have a photo of an unknown man and a Kitty Carr with my grandparents. I have sent for a copy of their marriage papers for more information.

Thanks for your help. This is such a fascinating journey with new questions with each answer.

Keith
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Keith Nelson



Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Posts: 16
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reply to pflanagan132:

Thanks also. My parents and I made a trip to County Leitrim in the 1960s to visit the relatives we had then. They were in Drumsna and Carrick-on-Shannon. (My mother only knew that her mother was born in Cloone.) The relatives were on my grandfather's (Crowley or Cronogue) side and didn't have any information about the Maguires. So, there may be other relatives there, but I don't have any information yet.

Keith
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Jim Irvine



Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 59
Location: Liverpool, England

PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The question arises - how sure are you of the identification of your Mary with the Mary in house 31/28 in the censuses?

It seems possible that if there was a Carr associated with your grandparents then perhaps it was your Mary who married Andrew Carr in the USA. But certainly the Mary at house 31 married Pat Nichol in Cloone in 1918. (Pat was born 1881 and was a son of Philip Nichol and Catherine Dillon of Edenbaun)

As to Mary comming back to Ireland, it was certainly not unknown for people to cross and recross the Atlantic - sometimes several times - but it would not have been a common occurrance.

And so we need to know what reasons you have for identifying Mary at house 31 with your Mary.

As to baptisms - it was exceedingly common for baptisms not to be recorded in the parish records. But also it was common for women to go to their parents home to give birth. If that home was in the same parish then they will still appear in the same records but often the home was in another parish e.g. Mohill, Carrigallen, Fenagh, Oughteragh. Without a strenuous search it would be difficult to establish this fact.

There should be an easier way. All these births happened well after the start of civil registration and should be recorded centrally in the General Register Office. Unfortunately to look there you need the names! Do you have these?
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Keith Nelson



Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Posts: 16
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not very sure about Mary at all. The Mary that married Andrew Carr may not be from 31/28. I have ordered her marriage certificate from NY State. Should know in a couple of weeks. I think your information about the marriage to Pat Nichol may be more reliable.

What would be the best way to look for descendants of Mary & Pat? This may be a way to find relatives in Ireland we didn't know existed. They may have information on the property location. I don't think my mother knew that her mother had brothers and sisters.

But, I think Mary was in the US for a time. According to the immigration documents, Bridget Maguire came here in 1905 and listed her sister Mary as who she was visiting in NY.

I don't have the parents names for either Mary Higgins or Daniel Maguire. If that information is usually found on birth and/or marriage certificates, would rootsireland.ie be a good source for me to use to obtain those documents? With the parents names I may be able to find locations on Griffiths.

Also, in regards to the Valuation Office in Dublin, how expensive is it for them to research the holdings in the Cancelled Books?

Thanks again. You have been a tremendous help.
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Jim Irvine



Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 59
Location: Liverpool, England

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a copy of a griffiths map and could probably roughly point out your place for you. If I had your email address I could try to email you a copy - although the map is not too easy to read.

I reckon Dan's father could have been a Dan or a PAtrick Maguire and they had property in the extreme southeast of the townland.

I have emailed the valuation office to check their costs but I reckon well under $50. When I did it it was about £25 sterling but that was in person at their office about 6 years ago.

Jim
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Keith Nelson



Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Posts: 16
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the offer. I have a map of the Sunnagh More land divisions from Griffiths. It's not the best, but I can make out the lot numbers. I converted it into PowerPoint and PDF so I can enlarge it to try to see things better.

I think my best course at this point is to try to obtain the names of Mary Higgins' & Daniel Maguire's parents. I think I'll try to order the marriage & birth certificates from rootsireland.ie. That may give me some idea of their parents locations.

And, I'll email the Valuation Office in Dublin to inquire about the Cancelled Books to see if there is any information there.

The only other avenue is to try to locate the descendants of Mary Maguire and Pat Nichol to see if they or other relatives may have some information.

Do you have any ideas how best to proceed with that, other than me calling those listed in the phone book in County Leitrim?

Thanks again.
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Jim Irvine



Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 59
Location: Liverpool, England

PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have the Griffiths map then look at lots 94 and 95 in the south east corner. Dan at 94a and Pat at 95a.

As I am fairly certain the two men were related that corner is your best bet for the family place. But once you have the name of Daniel's father you will be closer to sorting it out.
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Keith Nelson



Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Posts: 16
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went to rootsireland and searched for the Baptism/Birth record for Daniel Maguire. Knowing he married Mary Higgins in 1873, I looked for a birth year of 1853 + or - 10 years. There were 4 results. Two were too young. One would have married at 14 (not unheard of but not my first choice).

If it is useful, the marriage was in Gortletteragh Roman Catholic.

I found Daniel Maguire born/baptised Jan 20, 1853 in County Leitrim. Parish/District of Ballaghameehan Roman Catholic. Father's name is Thomas Maguire. Mother's is Margaret Owens.
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Jim Irvine



Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 59
Location: Liverpool, England

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What makes you think that Daniel son of Thomas is your Daniel?

Why would a Daniel from the north of the county end up on land in the South?

What makes you think he was born around 1853? He could easily have been quite some years older than his wife - which could explain his death at an early stage.
=================
I emailed the Valuation office as follows:

Dear Sir

How much it would cost to supply information from the cancelled books as to the location of land and as to who held that land before and since - together with a copy map of the relevant Griffith's map.

Reply:

Thank you for your email, the Archive team will not know the final cost of the research until they are finished, currently it is taking 10-12weeks due to heavy volumes of requests. I will give you a breakdown of the charges applicable to your request

€25.39 Research Fee

€12.70 Per A3 size map(colour)

€1.27 per colour copy of the cancelled/revision books
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Keith Nelson



Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Posts: 16
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for challenging me. I will expand my thinking and my search. I saw the northern location and I'll admit I thought it was unusual. I didn't think of looking for an older Daniel. And, if my map reading is correct, Gortletteragh Roman Catholic, where they were married, is in the south east part of the county.
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